Imagine!

OK, we are in trouble, now what?

2012-01-30T02:20:00.006Z

This is a follow up on a follow up on someone else's post. I mentioned in the previous post the article at Persona, quoting Internet Monk's article (which is here)
You probably should read the Monk's blog, but to sum it up, we are in a twist 'cause Evangelicalism is going to collapse. All right, this is an American blogger, it's news for them - on our side of the pond Evangelicalism collapsed a long time ago and we, the survivors, are in a wretched post-collapse-of-the-evangelicalism state. But bear with me, this thing may be rather uncomfortably more relevant than we care for.

So here are his points:

1. "Evangelicals have identified their movement with the culture war and with political conservatism. This was a mistake that will have brutal consequences." Read, Evangelicals have largely tied their wagon to (temporarily) rich and powerful right-wing politicians - to their peril. In other words, evangelicalism = George W. or worse. For people who claim to follow someone whose focus were the poor, the oppressed and the marginalised, that doesn't sound good.

2. "Evangelicals have failed to pass on to our young people the evangelical Christian faith in an orthodox form that can take root and survive the secular onslaught." As the Monk says, our young people know all about the single-issue issues, but next to nothing about what really matters.
My view is that we've miss-defined 'what really matters'. Orthodoxy that means seven literal 24-hour days, 6,000 year old Universe, pre-millenialist pre-tribulationist, Calvinist and whatever other narrow view catches your fancy - no wonder so many people believe that to be an Evangelical one had to give one's brain a very long leave of absence.

3. "Evangelical churches have now passed into a three part chapter: 1) mega-churches that are consumer driven, 2) churches that are dying and 3) new churches that whose future is dependent on a large number of factors. I believe most of these new churches will fail, and the ones that do survive will not be able to continue evangelicalism at anything resembling its current influence." Amen, or something. Although I think he misses it a bit here. It's a 4-part thing. The strength of Evangelicalism is in none of the 3 parts mentioned above but, IMHO, in the thousands of small, 100-ish churches who are spiritually healthy and faithful. Not to be confused with the many more thousands of small 100-ish spiritually dead churches that just need a bold enough undertaker.

4. "Despite some very successful developments in the last 25 years, Christian education has not produced a product that can hold the line in the rising tide of secularism." After my oldest son tried a well known Baptist University in, well, a Southern state, (and left before they had a chance to expel him) my personal belief is that Evangelical education in its American incarnation is an oxymoron. Or very close to it.

5. "The deterioration and collapse of the evangelical core will eventually weaken the missional-compassionate work of the evangelical movement." Unfortunately. 'Cause there is a whole big bunch of good work being done by the above mentioned Evangelicals. Warts and all, we Evangelicals do take our missional work seriously. The world will be a sadder place.

6. "Much of this collapse will come in areas of the country where evangelicals imagine themselves strong. In actual fact, the historic loyalties of the Bible belt will soon be replaced by a de-church culture where religion has meaning as history, not as a vital reality." No comment.

7. "A major aspect of this collapse will happen because money will not be flowing towards evangelicalism in the same way as before." Well said.

OK, so my question is, what do we do about it? What can our American brothers and sisters do to avoid the collapse (if you believe this is possible)? And what can we on the opposite side of the pond do to dust ourselves up and start again, maybe on a better footing?

Well, I could say 'I haven't the foggiest' but, however true, that would make for a rather boring blog.

So here is my feeble attempt. Please feel free to continue the discussion on your respective blogs or somewhere. This is probably too obscure a corner of the Internet for such important stuff.

1. Well, isn't it obvious? Politicians will promise what we think they promise (or what they think we want them to promise) while they are hunting for our votes. Hitching our wagons on any political party - specially one so far from the kind of morals Jesus preached - is not good politics. Or good stewardship of our democratic votes or whatever passes for it. Thing is, there is no good alternative. I heard it often said that 'politics' comes from the Greek word Poly, meaning many, and the English word Ticks, as in blood-sucking critters. And if there are no good alternatives, our responsibility as good little Evangelicals is not to wring our hands in despair, but to BE the alternative. There are enough of us to make our own political party - if we can put forward people who really have a Christ-centred morality, and a love for the kind of people Jesus cared about, and a serving heart - why, there won't be a problem with corrupt politicians, would there?

2. As I mentioned above, the problem is, we need to wake up and realise that what matters in the eyes of our heavenly Father is really not what matters in our own eyes. Seriously, just ask Him. You're supposed to be his son or daughter; it says so in the Book. Just go ask him, 'Daddy, what do you really care about? What do you think I should care about?' You might be blown up by his answer. No, not literally.

3. I really have nothing against mega-churches - I enjoy the professional services, the great music, the electrifying atmosphere - they are great! Just not a good place for discipleship or growth. And I like church plants - tried my hand at it a few times myself; I still have the scars. They are great fun, extreme sports kinda' thing. But the bread and butter of Christianity is the small church. The place where you belong, where it's a family, where you are a disciple and have disciples, where you are accountable and cared for and are not lost in the crowd. We just have to rediscover how to do community. If there is one thing that can turn your church around, community is IT.

4. Give up! Yeah, I mean it, if you are in Christian education, just give it up! By Christian education I mean those little cliques where we educate our kids insulated from the big bad world, pretending we can keep them innocent and ignorant of the darkness around them. Jesus said we are supposed to be salt and yeast - salt, but not in the saltshaker; yeast, but not in the dried yeast jar. Teach your kids to be true followers of Christ, and let them be light in the midst of the dark public schools. And I don't talk out of ignorance, 4 kids had the misfortune of having me as a dad. All but one are grown up now, and I know it's hard, but I also believe it's the only way.

5, 6 and 7 don't really need commenting on, do they?

2012-01-30T01:36:00.002Z

Whew, what a day!

I started by getting up later than usual - although one may argue that I started by taking a very long time to put an end to the previous day. But that's another story.
Then we had this great service with Jez, the Baptist Bishop :-) OK, please don't quote me on that! :o
It was great to hear him say that he never saw so many people in our church; I actually thought we are a bit low. But beside that, worship was exciting, his sermon was great, we all had a wonderful time.

But what made my day was the lady who just popped in to ask if we will have a service of dedication for her baby. Completely out of the blue, non-churched mum. These are the people we are here to serve - Yes, God, please keep them coming!
All right, some of the people who still had a margin of hope for me might now declare me a blooming heretic for even considering this - but so what, a while ago people said that about some teacher from Galilee too.

Evening service was a bit of a damp squid by comparison - I had a bit of a struggle preaching today's Lectionary passage. Normally I wouldn't have touched the subject with a 10 foot pole, but I promised I'll follow the Lectionary for a whole year, and so far I've been a good boy. Or something.

Then we had a long discussion about the 'problem'. What do we do with all these teens that have been invading our church? Ha, if they keep it up, soon there'll be more youngsters than pensioners in the church, and then what do we do? Or something. (I see a pattern developing here)

And then later we had a group discussing what's the next step in our link with this orphanage/school/church/thing in Malawi. Great stuff. We may be a tiny church but who says we can't have a global impact?

So now I'm up trolling the blogs (great something-to-think-about article regarding The Coming of the Evangelical Collapse at Persona, here, borrowed from somewhere else, see the links at Persona.

Well, it's only 2 am, can't go to bed this early, can I?
OK, maybe I should leave this post and go get myself into some other mischief.

Slow start

2012-01-28T22:10:00.003Z

Well, we were all excited about the new beginning last year - the celebration in the 'new' old church hall was great. It made a huge difference to be able to move back to the large lower hall - now our door opens to the street, the place looks welcoming and inviting, people walking on the street can look in during our services :-) - a lot of great stuff.
On the other hand, our worship team gave up the ghost after the Easter service. I was hoping we can move more towards a modern / contemporary service, but without the musicians, it hasn't been possible.
So when I was told they'll not play and lead the music in our church any more, I did what I usually do, started praying.
So obviously, the very next Sunday a new guy comes in, he just moved in the neighbourhood, wanted to join a church, and plays the piano.
It's not the old, upbeat group, but we have someone that can strike a bunch of notes on the keyboard. Thank you, Lord!

Been a few months since then. We had a GREAT Christmas season - over 100 people in the Carol service. The teens were amazing, everybody loved them. If you are in a church where 100 is how many people you get on a very bad Sunday, you have no idea what it is for our church. We haven't had 100 people since the 70's.

The youth club we started last year started great, went astray, died an early death, and now we have a new bunch of teens starting it over again. Hopefully we are doing it right this time.

And despite all our failures (mine, mostly...), the Lord is using us to influence lives, to be part of His work. We have such a great God!

A new beginning

2011-04-18T00:42:00.003+01:00

Today we celebrated Palm Sunday. I don't always follow the church calendar or a lectionary or anything like that - other than celebrating Christmas and Easter and Mothering Sunday. But we celebrated Lazarus Sunday last week and Palm Sunday this week.

It's an interesting thing about Palm Sunday I never noticed until last week (err.. last night) as I was preparing the sermon for today. The passage in Zechariah prophecying about the coming of the Messiah - it has some awesome promises in it.
You know, it starts with
"Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and victorious,
lowly and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey."
but then lower down in the passage, it promises,
"They will drink and roar as with wine;
they will be full like a bowl used for sprinkling the corners of the altar.
The LORD their God will save his people on that day as a shepherd saves his flock.
They will sparkle in his land like jewels in a crown.
How attractive and beautiful they will be!"
They could have had all this that day, if only they accepted him as their Lord. But instead, they moved, in a few hours, from worship, to being angry with him, to questioning his authority, to wanting to have him arrested, to trying to discredit him, and finally to plotting his murder.

OK, we are the Christian church, we don't plot to have Jesus killed - but maybe that's just because he is safely in heaven. But how often we reject him we reject his claims over us, we accept his gifts but we don't like what he is asking of us, and don't want to follow where he's leading. I get so frustrated when I see this in other Christians - but then I often catch myself doing the same.

He is Lord - if only we would submit to him! He is our guide - if only we would follow him! He is our God - if only we would worship him in reality and truth!

I got to think a lot at these things lately, as we as a church have taken the biggest step of faith since I came here. It eventually became obvious to me as well as to everyone else that we will not be able to move in the main hall any time soon. In the meantime the lower hall was getting unusable as well - we used to use it for sports activities for the brigades and the youth club, and occasionally for the Romanian bunch. But plaster used to fall off the wall every time we played any ball games, and there were a few cracks in the floor. So I got this idea of remodelling the hall and moving the church back there - that is the hall the church started in, and we would be moving back to our roots in a way.
The church caught this vision, and it snowballed from there, to the point that we have placed all our budget into this, in the faith that the Lord will step in and take our church forward.

We had the vision confirmed in many ways, but it's still so scary. We are one week from the big inauguration service one Easter Sunday, and there is more than two weeks' work still to do. Tomorrow we are starting one week of prayer. We are at the point at which either the Lord steps in and does some amazing things in our midst, or we die as a church. It's crunch time, and scary as it is, I feel so excited about it all! I can feel the buzz in the air. As I look into the eyes of my people, I can see the doubts and fear, but also the excitement and faith. I can see people growing through it all.

'The church that would not die' is being reborn this week. Not on Easter Sunday - it is this week of prayer that is the beginning of a new page for us. It's funny that we begin this on my birthday - I haven't even realised this until tonight. I am going into this week with no message, no service, no preparation, no religious stuff - we are going to just wing it. All I want is to come before God and be open to him - and receive whatever he has for us. But as we go into this week, I was caught by this promise, "They will sparkle in his land like jewels in a crown. How attractive and beautiful they will be!"

direction

2010-07-22T12:20:00.002+01:00

Last week we celebrated one year since I was officially inducted as pastor of Ford. As I promised them, I took the first year to discover the strengths and weaknesses of the church; to see what spiritual gifts are there and what else we need; and to discover where the Lord is leading us, so we can build our vision and strategy based on the Lord's guidance rather than on our own wisdom or lack of.

Strengths are too many to count, but above all I enjoy the love and acceptance that is prevalent in this church. You can feel it the moment you step through the door. No, we're not perfect in this regard, but there is a solid core of love this church is built on.
Weaknesses - well, I better not publish them on a blog :-) I guess in the time I've been at Ford, I discovered more weaknesses in me than in the church.
On the spiritual gifts, I find it interesting that we generally had the gifts necessary for the direction the church is taking; and where we needed the gifts and didn't have them, the Lord sent the right people who fitted right in.

Where the Lord is leading us - that's the central thing, because our vision, mission and strategy depend on that - and the gifts and strengths are there to support them.

I guess the biggest surprise for me was the kids invasion. I have one child who's 14, the others are grown up. One other family in the church has an 18 year old. And these are the only 'kids' that come from the church family. Apart from them, there are 3 other teenagers that have been in the church for a while, even though their parents are not members of this church. So I did not think we have much of a chance to build a solid group of children and teenagers.

But then, our Boys Brigade and Girls Brigade began to grow - we have some 60 kids in them. And we started a youth club with 4 teens, and now we are being swamped with kids from the neighbourhood. So I guess the great thing is that we are becoming a true family-oriented community church. Which is what I have been dreaming of but didn't quite believe we can get. The Lord had this planned all along :-) The big thing now is to follow it up.

Huston, we've got a problem :-)

2010-05-18T22:32:00.004+01:00

We are in the midst of the "10 days of prayer for Plymouth" campaign. Basically the church has been opened 24 hours a day for anyone to come in and pray, and we've been praying for a spiritual revival, and for people to come and meet the Lord in the churches anywhere in the city - secretly hoping the Lord will choose our church above all the others.

Well, about 5 minutes before the service started on Sunday morning, it was obvious we've got a problem. We run out of chairs. The room we meet in just couldn't fit any more people. Well, no more came, and happily in the end we did manage to find a seat for everyone. But what do we do now - do we stop praying or do we move back in the 'new' (1899) church hall?

Every now and then I discover new things about the history of our church. I guess we should call it 'the church that would not die'. Apparently, over 20 years ago the BU decided there are too many Baptist churches in Plymouth, and thought some should close and join with some of the bigger churches. Ours was one of the small churches that was supposed to close. It didn't.
Then a new pastor came, and he was pastor of two churches. So he decided that Ford should close and the Ford people should join his other church. Well, he left and the church is still here.

This is a church that shrunk from 400 to under 10 people. We have three different meeting halls - all built in the 19th century. Our mother church was the church where the people the Americans call the Pilgrim Fathers, worshipped in. We stand on the shoulders of giants - but at some point our church lost its way.

As I was standing in the new hall tonight, I was reminded of that verse - "if my people who are called by my name, shall humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land." Who would have thought all it takes is for a small group of people to pray? I mean, isn't the church supposed to come with these great plans, and gimmics, and evangelistic strategies, and, well, that sort of stuff? Pray people into the Kingdom? Expect God to actually answer prayer? Experience the supernatural actions of God? See the Bible promises fulfilled? In a Baptist church?

I guess we have a bit more repenting and humbling and praying to do - the main church hall can seat a lot more people. And there are ever so many lost souls at our doorsteps!

the story

2009-12-27T15:29:00.004Z

So we hung the Christmas lights, and decorated the tree, and bought presents, and sent out cards, and ate the turkey - or goose - or pig, depending on your tradition - and left cookies out for Santa, and listened for the reindeer, and - oh well, now it's all over. We survived another Christmas season.

It's a great bunch of stories mixed up in this Christmas stuff. Santa and Rudolf and the elfs and the tree and the mistletoe and the three wise guys - men - whatever, and the shepherds and donkeys and camels and even some manger and baby and frankincence and stuff. Bunch of stories.

At church we looked at stories today too. "The people worshipped the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders who outlived Joshua, who had seen all the great work that the Lord had done for Israel. [...] that whole generation was gathered to their ancestors, and another generation grew up after them, who did not know the Lord or the work that he had done for Israel."
Oh, the stories the elders used to tell around the camp fires! Plagues and the parting of the sea, and a God who goes out camping with a bunch of runaway slaves, and a pillar of fire and a voice of thunder and city walls crumbling at the sound of God's people praising their God... Great stories; and they witnessed them all, they saw it all with their very own eyes.
But then a whole new generation grew up. The postmodern generation. They did not see the miracles their granparents were talking about, they did not witnessed the stories, it was not their thing and, well, he was not their God. Not really. Oh, they knew all about it, but they did not know Him. They had no experience of an adventure with Him. So they went looking for other stories. The book of Judges is the book of ten generations, one after another, leaving The Story in order to try and find their own story. They went looking for their own dream, and every time their dream ended up in nightmare.

I think this is where we are in the church today. So many of us lost touch of the great overarching story; we know it all right, but it's not OURS. It's the story of the book, or the tradition, or the story of our forefathers. It's not our everyday life.
And yet that story is all along waiting to burst into the everyday, into the mundane of our life. You can see it hiding behind the corners, and lurking in the shadows; you can catch a glimpse here and there; but who's paying any attention? It's just that old story, isn't it?

Christianity is sick, but it's not sick because of lack of knowledge or lack of theology or theologians, it's not from lack of resources or buildings or funds or programs. Oh, we have it all wrapped up nice and neat; it's just that, largely, it's not our story. Not really. We know it, but how many of us live it? We believe in miracles - as long as we are not expected to pray for one, or maybe live one. We believe in the supernatural, as long as the supernatural stays well away from the everyday.

Well, it turns out the supernatural is just around the corner. A prayer answered. A life changed. A dream captured. A relationship healed. A heart restored. No, our God hasn't changed - we did. Maybe it's time we wake up?!?

When it rains...

2009-10-16T22:33:00.004+01:00

I am in the midst of the most interesting answer to prayer for a while. I have been 'living by faith' - as in, without any proper income, for over a year now. I applied for all sorts of jobs, I placed bids for all sorts of programming and web projects, I tried everything I could think of, all to no help. We survived, barely, but we've been sinking deeper and deeper into debt. The crunch point was when the bailiff came at our door, regarding the money we owe towards the council tax. We just didn't have them.

So that is when I told the Lord that I can not go on like this. I came here knowing that this is the church the Lord called me to, and we have seen the Lord working in people's lives, and in the church. By his grace, this church that one year ago was contemplating closure, is now growing and planning with confidence for the future. But the thing is, my family and I are sinking. I had to do some deep sould searching to see if I shouldn't just look for some other place, some other church, some other ministry. But in the end, I told the Lord that, as long as his calling does not change, I am here to stay, even if we end up homeless or worse.

Well, last week I earned a bit over £50, which is an insignificant amount but better then I've been earning lately. On Sunday, as we were getting ready to leave for church, I struggled woth the idea that I should take £5 to give in the offering - even though we don't have enough to survive another week. Somehow, I said in the end, "Lord, I trust you. You promised to look after us. I am here at your call and doing your work - I trust in your faithfulmess."

Aas a background - some 5 months ago the church voted to pay me a very modest salary, but the treasurer refused to pay it until now. And some 4 months ago we were told that the Baptist Association approved a small mission grant towards my salary as well. But then nothing came of that either. Meanwhile my computer work has completely dried out.

So back to last Sunday. I went through the service, and gave those 5 pounds in the offering plate, and then - at the end of the service - the treasurer goes to my wife and hands her the cheque with my salary for October! It's not a lot, it would only cover half of our regular house bills, not including food or anything else for us - but it was a gift from God! And then, on Tuesday, she comes and gives me the back pay for the last 4 months. Which is just enough to keep the bailiff off our back! Also on Tuesday, we got word that the grant from the Association is on its way. And during this week I've been in discussions with a company in the US for a fairly major database project. I don't have the contract in hand yet but it looks like it's firmly on. And then yesterday a brother from an advertising company calls to say that the project they rejected a month ago is now back on the table. And then another former customer calls to give me some work. And tonight yet another former customer called to ask if I can do some work for him. In the meanwhile, the city sent a letter saying I only owe them half of the council tax.

So I got all this for £5??? It's not the money, I know - the Lord is faithful.

Another month...

2009-07-11T16:29:00.003+01:00

So it's been over a month since the last post.

The greatest thing was the baptism we had a couple of weeks ago. It was such a priviledge to baptise two of my own sons! There are few things that are as moving for a father, as leading his own sons in the covenant of baptism. Of course, it was great to baptise Matthew and Cynthia too.

The Walk study went well so far - I love the interaction and discussions we get every Tuesday. It's great to see new - and even not so new - Christians 'getting it' and growing. I am a disciple maker at heart, I love this more than any other aspect of being a pastor, and being in this church has been a true blessing.

And then, we are still living our faith adventure. It is great to see how the Lord leads us on, one step at a time. When it looks like we are finally sinking, He throws us a lifeline and we're continuing to 'float' a while longer. It's not the easiest kind of life, but it is a life in which we are keenly aware that every day we're alive, every day we have a roof over our heads and food on the table, it's by the direct action of the Lord, and by His grace. Someone asked me if it's difficult to have faith when you go through a time like this. Well, it is difficult to NOT have faith - when you have no choice but to rely completely on God, and when you see His hand at work every day, there's no place for doubts. You get to know God personally and intimately, because He is a real, tangible part of your everyday life.

And finally, next Saturday it's my induction service. I never knew what an induction service was, until now - we don't have that kind of ceremony in Romania, and I never heard of it in the States either. Leave it to the Brits to come up with interesting ways to celebrate the beginning of a new faze in a pastor's ministry. It's a lot of hustle and bustle, but I look forward to it. And after next Saturday, I'll be the 'properly official' pastor of Ford Baptist Church. Maybe I should be driving a Ford too?!?

the great adventure

2009-06-07T21:15:00.005+01:00

Sorry, guys and gals, I've been so busy that posting here just faded in the background.

We had a wonderful Open House yesterday, the openness and love was so evident in everyone present. Ford Baptist, I am so blessed to be your pastor!
I was looking over what the Lord has been doing in the last few months. The first growth spur seems to have plateaued at the moment, but I have no worries - it will start again soon. A few people became part of our church family. Four people are waiting to be baptised next Sunday. I can see lives being touched and changed. A few people are battling with depression, and they find help and support here. Someone's gotten in trouble with the police, and is now back with the Lord and looking for help to put his life back together. New Christians are growing closer to the Lord. A few parents are staying on for the service rather than just dropping their kids to church and picking them up again later. Although that in itself is really amazing too. We even had a dog in church today - no kidding! The Lord is doing great things in people's lives here, and my family and I are so priviledged to be part of it! Evelina is really back in her element, gathering a flock of friends and being the soul of everything going on.

But what blesses me most is the love you can feel in the church. It hits you as you walk through the doors; people laughing and smiling and chatting and making this such a wonderful place. It hit me when a visitor from another church told me at the end of a service - "I can't believe how much love there is in this church!" Yeah, Lord! That's what it's all about. We can't convince people into the kingdom, I can't preach them into the Kingdom - but if we love them into the Kingdom, we're doing it the right way.

Yes, sure, it's an adventure, and I'm back at it with a vengeance. Over the years I had forgotten what it's like to live by faith. When you're down to the last pennies, and there is no food in the fridge and no money to pay the bills, it gets scary and stressful. But God is our Daddy - he's never let us down yet, and he'll never fail in his faithfulness. Oh, I wish I could come even close to deserving it - but it's all about His grace. That amazing, wonderful, never-ending grace.

Oh yes, I love the Lord, and I love this little church, and I'm enjoying every moment (well, almost...) of this adventure. There is nothing I'd rather do and no place I'd rather be. And definitely no church I'd rather be a part of.

the day we murdered God

2009-04-10T21:42:00.003+01:00

We had a great Good Friday service, if I may say so myself. :-)
Apart from the regulars and the visitors from the Morice Church, we had two visitors from the community. One is a lady who was on her third visit, so I'm hoping she is getting stuck with us. Another is a man who lives just up the road, we had a nice and looong chat after church. I hope for lots more visitors for the main service on Sunday.

I didn't have this problem for a long time, but I choked a bit during the sermon; now, if the preacher impresses himself to tears, maybe it wasn't too bad. I had lots of people commenting on the sermon after the service.
This is the bit that had me choked:

God came to us, and we arrested Him; we treated Him like a criminal; we condemned Him in a mock trial; we laughed at Him; we slapped Him in the face; we put a crown of thorns on His head; we flogged Him; we spat on him; we pulled the hairs of His beard out; we paraded Him on the streets of Jerusalem, carrying a heavy, wooden cross; we drew nails through His hands and feet; we put Him on a cross, and made Him die a slow, painful, horrible death. We did this to God.
Throughout history, we humans have done a lot of sins. Lying, stealing, murder, adultery, hatred, war, genocide, terrorism, gossip, slander, hatred... the list goes on and on. There are so many bad things we've done. But the worse, the most heinous, the most disgusting sin we have ever done, was that when God came to us, we tortured and murdered Him.
This is what we are celebrating today. Good Friday is the day when we tortured and murdered our God. Good Friday is the day we, the human race, committed the worst sin we've ever done. Good Friday is the day when we rejected God is the worst way possible. All the sin of all of humanity in all of time, culminated in the sin we committed that day.
By all accounts, that should have been the end of the human race. That should have been the day when God would wipe us out of existence; that should have been the day when God destroyed the whole of creation. Because on that day we took our rebellion against God to its final conclusion. That day, we showed God how much we hate Him.
That wasn't “Good Friday” - it wasn't even just bad Friday, or worst Friday – it was the worst day ever. In the whole history of the Universe, that was the worst day.
And God used that day, and He used that sin – the worst sin we've ever done, in order to show us who He is. He took “worst Friday” and turned it into “Good Friday.” He took our worst sin and made it into the gateway for our salvation. He took our worst display of rage and hatred and rebellion in order to show us His love. He took that moment when we tried to break with Him in a complete and final way – and made it into a door for reconciliation. The day we murdered Him, was the day He made it possible for us to become His children.
If we ever wonder who God is, we just have to look at that day. He is the God who would do all that for us – in order to save us. He saw our broken lives, our loneliness, He saw how lost and miserable we are, He saw the tragedy of our lives – and He decided to do something about it. He took the greatest tragedy and turned it into salvation. He took the greatest sin and turned it into grace. He took the greatest display of hate and turned it into love. He came to those who tortured and murdered him, and called us to be his beloved children. He took our hell, and offered us heaven.

God's faithfulness

2009-03-23T12:00:00.002Z

"God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful." (1 Corinthians 1:9). Such a simple statement, isn't it? God is faithful. He called us into fellowship with His Son, and He is faithful - He will keep His word. This is the unshakeable foundation of our faith.

I was reminded of this last night as I listened to the presentation of Shekinah Mission. They started as a work of faith, in response to a need, and the Lord has been faithful. They are now touching countless lives, and the Lord is transforming them and calling them to Himself. A small group of people, who had no funds or buildings or organisation behind them - people who had a dream and were ready to run with it - placed themselves in the hands of our Lord, and He used them to build what Shekinah Mission is today.
I am being reminded of this every time the Lord answers a prayer, or a need, or when He draws a new soul into the fellowship of His church. Yesterday's passage was all about grace (John 8: 1 -12). Jesus, the light of the world, showing His light in grace towards a woman who was just a pawn in the game the Pharisees were playing. Jesus, showing grace even to the pharisees who were there to trick him into breaking the law. Jesus, showing that He is not about power and coercion, but about love and forgiveness and freedom. About opening up a new door of hope. I live because of His grace. Ford Church is here because of His grace. God is faithful, and because He is, we have a hope and a future.

thinking about the future

2009-03-10T12:03:00.002Z

I feel a bit like Mary, who used to keep in her heart extraordinary things happening in the early years of the life of Jesus - and wondering what kind of man He will grow up to be. Events continue to sweep over me, and I'm trying to make sense of what the Lord is doing in this church.

Last week I had lunch with Baroness Cox, with the Lord Mayor of Plymouth and his wife, and a few other dignitaries. Both the baroness and the mayor gave me their cards and asked that I contact them, and I had interesting discussions with them. The mayor wants to come and visit our Boys' Brigade and Girls' Brigade - to show their support for the work we do with the children. Baroness Cox wants to put me in contact with a few people she knows, regarding ministry in Eastern Europe and to Eastern Europeans here in the UK. I have no idea why I ended up meeting with a member of the House of Lords and the mayor and his wife - I'm not interested in politics - but somehow the Lord arranged things so I got there.

People continue to just come and contact us, there Lord is drawing people in before we even get a chance to do anything about it. Last Sunday I was away preaching at a different church, but at Ford there were about 60 people. We got to the point where we need to start meeting again in the main hall, we don't fit any more in the middle hall we've been using over the winter. I've been praying that the Lord will give us at least 100 people regularly during the Sunday worship, before the end of the year. We seem to be getting there ahead of my schedule - a great problem to have! I look around and there is so much need for love, for grace, for a vision and for encouragement. We had the Baptist Association's meeting last Saturday, and I could sense the discouragement and feelings of helplessness in many of the people present. Churches have been shrinking, a few have closed down and there are a few more that face closure unless something is done about it. One church building burned down recently. And yet, all around us there are hundreds of thousands of people who need the Lord, and many of them are somewhat open to the Spirit - they just need the right community, and need people who would lead them to the Lord. I hope we get to be that kind of church. I feel like the farmer standing before a great harvest - one I did not sow or worked for. It's only His grace.

Monday!

2009-03-02T10:46:00.003Z

We had a smaller group yesterday in the morning service - but a bigger number than usual in the evening. Quite a few people were away, and we had only a few children.

But things are happening. One young man from the neighbourhood came for a visit in the morning, came back in the evening, and is already interested in joining the church. Last week I distributed a trial run of 50 leaflets on a street by the church - and he is the first result.
One man found our website and contacted me, first to ask about some local history, and then to tell me that he is moving in the area, wants to visit the church, and would like to eventually be married in our church.
Last night, just after the service, a young lady came to have a look around. She is moving in the area, is getting married, has never had a church home and is looking for one. Very soon we were talking about her desire to learn more about faith, to be baptised, to become part of our church. We will have to start baptism classes after Easter - she is the third person asking about baptism.

It feels like events are just taking over, pushed by an invisible hand. The only time I experienced something like this was when planting the church in Barlad. It is as if the Lord had people already open and looking for a church, and He was just waiting for the church to get a grip. Morice Baptist, our partner church, is experiencing the same thing - after years of decline, suddenly new people are coming in, all by themselves. This is what I was hoping for, but not really what I was expecting.

Of course it does not mean we can stop reaching out; it is our duty as a church to go into the community and reach people for the Lord any way we can. But what I think is happening is that the Lord already had people whose heart was open, but the church was not ready for them. We are not there yet, there is a long way to go, but the feel of the church is definitely changing. The Lord is at work - we just need to try and catch up. I need to catch up - I'm still in a bit of a daze and haven't quite got a grip on things.

Last night I had troubles with the sound system, and one of the songs (Beautiful Lord) was more or less murdered. The sound guy wasn't there and I could not find the wire to connect my laptop to the amp. We survived it, but I have to learn where everything is and how everything works - we can't have this happen in a Sunday morning service. The evening sermon was a bit undercooked; I haven't quite managed to catch up with my message schedule. I'm getting there. I'm a visiting preacher somewhere else this coming Sunday, and then a bunch of meetings around Easter are coming. And then we kick start our Living with Christ small group series. I've got to get all of that ready soonest. And to plan the baptism and membership class, and to make my preaching plan for after Easter. Things are getting really interesting and exciting! I've still got a few things dragging me down - particularly the whole financial thing - but then, I've got to put in practice what I was preaching last night: step out in faith! The Lord is faithful - it's just a question of me, and us as a church, being faithful.

Failing

2009-02-20T12:12:00.002Z

Craig Groeschel of lifechurch.tv wrote a book imaginatively called "It." Apparently it's now available on video, and there is a chunk of video on the blog, here.

I had my share of failures - well, maybe more than my share. If you didn't fail much, it may be because I used some of your share too. The last couple of years have been filled with a lot of failure and not a lot of success. So I could feel getting a bit more cautious and unsure of myself. I think I really needed to see this video. I like the quote, "For us failure is not an option - it's a necessity." I learned a lot from the attempt to plant Imagine!, and from the short time at United Faith in Pittsburgh. Imagine! failed miserably and United Faith didn't move forward much under my leadership. But these experiences taught me a lot about myself and about the kind of team and process required to successfully plant or restart a church in a culture that is radically different from my own. What I did NOT learn is that I should stop trying. Here I am, doing it all over again. I can't even imagine a life where I am not involved in a church and in bringing people to a close relationship with Christ.

So, anyway - there is an adventure ahead. A big, exciting, perilous adventure. Yeah, I might fail LOTS of times - no, scratch that, I will fail in very imaginative ways; but what's the use of trying something if you already know the outcome and every step on the way? the great thing about life with Christ is not that we are safe and secure in the knowledge that all is going to be OK; rather, it's the knowledge that the Lord is working in and through us in spite of all our mess-ups. It's the fact that we know it's all beyond our capabilities - it's a God thing; but the Lord is there to lead us and carry us through.

So, "It" is now on my wishlist. If you were wondering what to give me for my birthday - now you know.

Little details

2009-02-16T21:29:00.004Z

OK, I may sound like I'm pulling myself up by my bootstraps; I probably am. But the thing is, if I can not trust the Lord in the little details of life, like bills and money and a place to live - how could I trust him with the big things - with lives that need to be changed, with eternal souls to be saved, with winning this corner of the world for Christ? And the thing is, the big, important things are happening.

If you haven't guessed, this is my Monday high. We had 38 people in church yesterday - not a lot by most people's standard, but when half of them are not saved yet, it really sounds like victory to me! Eileen was there last night - I was so thrilled to see her! A few years ago she gave up on church - but now, after losing her husband, her son and her grandson, she is willing to give it another try. All we did was show her a little love - there is so much more where that came from! There are a lot of lonely, hurting people all around us - and we who follow Jesus have been connected to an infinite ocean of love: the heart of God! People may not accept theology and sermons and "church" - but give them open, genuine, disinterested, vulnerable love - and they are suddenly open wide.
Two people asked if I can visit them to talk about them joining the church. A third one said he is thinking about it too. A lady wants to talk about being baptised. There is this teenage guy who's waiting for baptism too. A father of 6, who is really struggling to keep his family together, opened up a lot this week and allowed me a peek into his struggle and pain. I KNOW the Lord is working there - there is a lot of pain, but with our Daddy, there is a lot of hope too. And I haven't even started to visit people in the community - what's that going to be like?

"The gates of hell shall not prevail against [my church]" - that's what Jesus promised. Gates of hell? What gates? We belong to the One who smashed them to pieced long ago - we're just here receiving the freed captives, and guiding the ones trying to find the way out. Yeah, sure, there might be a fiery arrow here and there, a few threats shouted by the enemy - a few reminders that there is a battle raging even though we are the victors - but when the prize is eternity for every one of these dear ones, who cares for the little details?

Faith

2009-02-15T17:09:00.003Z

The last few days I've been reminded constantly of the simpler times, at the beginning of my ministry, when it was so much easier to step out in faith - childish, sometimes (OK, often) silly, foolish faith. It was childish and foolish, but it gave me the opportunity to see God's direct actions in my life over and over again.

Like the time when I bought a one-way ticket to Vienna, Austria, in order to look for a Bible school or some other place where I can be trained to become a pastor. I knew no one in Austria, I did not speak German, I had no contacts of any sorts, I had no money to go back to Romania or to live for more than a day or two - but I knew the Lord called me to be a pastor, and, well, there I was! Within a few hours of entering Austria I had a place to live and was on the way to getting my scholarship to go to Capernwray in England for a one-year Bible School.

Or the time when, having received the visa to come to the UK, I had no money to buy the plane ticket - and yet I went to the travel agency and waited patiently in line, expecting the Lord to provide the money. It was the equivalent of my income for 5 months - but sure enough, the Lord provided them in an amazing way - but did so only after I got the first in line, facing the sales person and wondering what to tell her...

Or when I went back home to start a brand new church plant, having no clue how to plant a church, having no job, no income, no support structure, no backing of any sort - but trusting the Lord in all of this - AND asking him to give me at least 100 new believers within one year.
Sure enough, we passed the 100 mark exactly the same date one year later. As my little group and I shared the stories of the people we witnessed to and the many who prayed to receive the Lord that day, I suddenly realised we had lead to the Lord over 120 people - it was just over 20 people who had prayed the Lord into their life that day - and that afternoon was one year since I asked the Lord for those 100 people. Of course I was a bit upset - why didn't I ask for more?!? :-) And there are so many more stories like these...

I am now at a similar crossroads - I know I am where the Lord wants me, doing the service he asked me to do - and having no money, no support, no way to pay the bills and seeing no way forward. And this time around I find myself wavering, one moment I have that same unmovable faith I used to have - and the next, when faced with yet another bill, or yet another decision or question with no answer, I find myself wondering - what if the Lord will not step in this time? What if he will let me fail? I guess the experience of having failed to plant "Imagine" in Pittsburgh made me aware that sometimes faith is not enough. The Lord will answer - but his answer may be "No." Particularly when the situation is the way it is - I am not, like those years ago, in a poor country, in a church where people give all they can and more, but all we have simply falls short of what we need. I am in a church that has more than plenty, but chooses to back out of their responsibility to provide for the needs of the ministry - after having promised to do so only weeks ago. So, do I go out in faith, or do I stop, realising this problem is the result of disobedience on the part of the church? On the one hand, if they are not faithful, my duty is to continue in my own faithfulness. On the other hand - can I expect the Lord to make up for a shortfall stemming from disobedience?

Oh well - I have a couple of days to get the answer, and while it's scary, it is also exciting. Oh, the adrenaline rush of living by faith!

Monday morning high - again

2009-02-09T10:19:00.003Z

We had another great service yesterday. I haven't counted the people in there - one of the deacons does that but he was away preaching at another church. By my estimate, there were about 50 people in the service. Again, a few of our regulars were not there, but we had lots of kids from the Boys' and Girls' Brigade, some of their parents, and a few other visitors. The Lord is doing awesome things in and through this church!

I had a chat with David last night - he's already thinking and planning ahead, has a bunch of great ideas - I like his spirit! If we get a few of the others to catch the vision, we're in for a wild ride this year.

One apparently small thing really touched my heart. At the end of the service, I got a hug from a little girl, and she started telling me all about things she did in the Girls' Brigade. And then her sister came, and soon I had a small group of children around me. I only met these kids two or three weeks ago - it's great to see them opening up and considering me part of the family. Some of them come from broken families, or from all sorts of difficult backgrounds. If we can offer them genuine love and care, we're already well on the way of influencing their life for eternity. And, who knows, maybe their parents will get to know the love of our Lord too.

Baby steps

2009-02-02T10:35:00.003Z

Other pastors speak of the Monday morning low - when the Sunday excitement and bussiness is over, and you think of yesterday's sermon and wonder, "I said WHAT???" I had a few of those too.

But today it's a Monday morning high. We had two great services yesterday. A few kids from the GB and BB (that's Girls' Brigade and Boy's Brigade, for those of you who don't live in the UK) dragged their parents to church with them. Parents that don't normally go to any church, and don't have a relationship with the Lord - yet! Our BB and GB volunteers do a terrific job serving these children. We also had a record number of people for a regular service. Just to make sure you don't get the wrong idea - a regular service at Ford has been around 20-25 people lately. When the last pastor resigned they were considering closing down the church. But we had 29 people two Sundays ago, 31 last Sunday and 38 yesterday - if we keep this momentum, we should be OK a few months from now.
What excites me most is not the numbers, but the kind of people that form that number. Officially we have 14 members. A few of these are older people who are house bound. The people who come to our services are not transfers or visitors from other churches - they are people who don't yet belong to the Lord, or new believers who haven't had a chance to join a church yet. What excites me is the number of parents who are not believers, but come to drop their children to church and then pick them up after the service. Three of them stayed on yesterday; I hope many more will join us in the future. Of course we have a long way to go - there is a large community of mostly unsaved people all around us. But every soul saved is a miracle of God's grace. Baby steps...

I'm in!

2009-01-27T21:46:00.002Z

Well, apparently, this is it. Tonight, the church body at Ford Baptist Church unanimously voted to call me as their pastor. Of course, we have to go through all the hoops to do with the Baptist Union and accreditation and stuff - but that's supposed to be just details. I have a new family - and a ministry! I am so very excited about it!

the highs and the lows

2009-01-27T11:33:00.003Z

One privilege on being a pastor is that you get to take part in the highs and the lows of people around you. You get to experience life with them - and to lift them in prayer before our Father.

Yesterday my wonderful lady and I visited a former member of our church. She is in her 70's, and until last week, shared her home with her grandson. Now he is gone - suicide.
We will never know why this brilliant 19 year old chose to end his life. As a suicide survivor said, most people who attempt or commit suicide don't really want to die - they just don't know how to live. How I wish things were different!

There were no words to say, to comfort this lady. Her husband died a few short years back. Her son died recently. Now her grandson is gone too. All I could do was to give her a warm embrace and pray for her - and to listen to anything she wanted to talk about. I think that's all anyone can do in circumstances like these. Be there, show her love and support, a shoulder to cry on and an open heart. I left there saddened and encouraged in the same time. Saddened by the tragedy in this lady's life. Encouraged by a Father who loves her and chose to use my wife and I as a little reminder of that love.

Today was a very different day. Our church building was invaded by a bunch of 5 year olds from the local school. It was part of their Religious Education class - a visit to a local church. I got to tell them a bit about being a Baptist, about Jesus Christ who died on a cross for us - and who is symbolised in the cross on the wall and the bread and wine on the Communion table. About repentance and 'starting again' in baptism. One boy had a mock baptism - I must confess I changed the 'liturgy' a bit. Instead of the standard baptism questions, I asked him if he'll stop fighting with his sister and if he promises to be good in school (he said Yes!!!!) - and then he was baptised in a pool with pretend water.

The whole thing was a lot of fun. All the children went down in the baptistry - we have stairs on both ends, so we had a line of kids coming down one set of stairs and up the other. They admired the 100 year old pipe organ, the stain glass windows, the wood carvings, the banners - and, as the teachers said, this was for many of them the first time they've ever been in a Christian church.

It was a first contact, but now apparently I am in a lot of truble. They promised to bring other classes over for visits throughout the year. I am supposed to get scheduled to lead some of their assemblies. Community outreach - and this is a door that 'opened itself', all I had to do was to say 'yes.'

Last time "preaching with a view"

2009-01-25T23:06:00.003Z

... or so I hope! :o

The Vote is Tuesday, but already the deacons treat me as their pastor. And I really feel that they are my church. But today was the last time I was here as a visiting preacher.

This is what "prodigal John" says on his blog (http://stufffchristianslike.blogspot.com), about 'audition sermons': "1. I'd preach part 2 of a 3 part sermon series.
Forget this one off nonsense. I'm coming in and preaching the second part of a three part series. I'm starting right in the middle of the conversation. You want to hear the dramatic conclusion? You want to know how this Biblical cliffhanger of a sermon ends? Curious about where the series began, or what I would call the "prequel?" You'd have to invite me back to preach again."

Well, this is more or less what I did. I began a series from John the first time they called me, back in December. Today I let them know that it was a series.... If they want to hear the rest, they have vote me in on Tuesday. :)

It would be interesting if it goes south... I'm already scheduled to preach there for the next few Sundays, so if there is a No vote, that'll make for some interesting crowd dynamics!

We passed another hurdle today. My buddy Eddy came to his dad's church, and loved it! I was afraid he'll miss Hope - they are an amazingly great church, and I feel a bit bad to take my family from there in order to join a much smaller church. But Eddy really loved the Sunday School - Well done, Lord! There is this girl, Rachel - she is only 18, but she is AMAZING! I watched her interact with the kids at the Boys' Brigade on Wednesday - if there ever was a person gifted to work with children, it's her! So great to have people like her on the team! Eddy said he loves her. OK, don't take it the wrong way - he's a bit young for that kind of love - well, he has a girlfriend his own age, sort of. But to hear him say that did a lot to boost this daddy's confidence that he's doing the right thing.

On Tuesday I have this bunch of 5 year olds from the local primary school descending on me. Put me in front of thousands of mean looking adults, and I'm OK. But send a bunch of 5 year olds my way, and I'm scared witless! I love kids, but I always feel like I don't know quite how to keep them interested and entertained. As a father of 4, this does not speak highly of my parenting skills... Anyway, after being in the States for a few years, it's great to realise I'm in a country where schools will call on churches for help and would drop in for a visit with a bunch of kids. I am hoping this will develop into a lasting relationship with the school. They are just down the road from us.

So here I am, already making plans, developing a vision, trying to lay down a path... Maybe I'm a bit too excited about it all? I guess what makes me so pumped up is the deep sense that I'm exactly where the Lord wants me, and that He is going to come through for us in a big way. He's such a great God! OK, he does have some questionable choices when it comes to pastors for his churches - at least one of them.... But I am so in love with him!

I am so blessed!

2009-01-21T22:09:00.002Z

Last week a group of us from Ford went to visit Flo, a 90-something young lady from our church. We chatted, we had communion, we admired the amazing matchstick ship model she builds... It broke my heart to know that she has not had communion in years - there was noone to bring it to her, and she is house-bound. And yet she didn't complain - she loves the Lord, she loves his Church, she keeps up to date with what is going on - and she is praying for us.

On Monday my wonderful wife and I went to visit Edie, another young lady, in her 80's, also house bound. She just came home from the hospital; we went there just for a chat and a prayer - hoping to be a blessing to her. In fact, it was us who were blessed. I could see Evelina filled with the joy of being there. Find the elderly, the sick, the needy, and she is in her element. And, sure enough, we got another prayer warrior interceding for us. Edie promised to keep Evelina and I in her prayers - the Lord knows how we need that.

Today I went to the Boys' Brigade. There were less than 20 boys tonight - but altogether, this little church has about 40 youngsters enrolled in the Boys Brigade and the Girls Brigade. 40 young lives being touched with the love of Christ - and through them, their families too. For me tonight was lots of fun. Beyond that, however, is the realisation of how wonderful this church is. They had years of hurt, of pain, of decline. And yet, rather than focusing on themselves, they are as outward focused as ever. They look for ways to help the community. They pray, and encourage, and love, and support. They spend their time, and money, and effort, in order to touch others with the grace and love from our Daddy.

And here am I, this wondering, lost, uprooted guy - called to be a part of this work of God's grace. I am from another country, another culture, I am just a stranger - and yet they embraced me as their own. I have no illusions - it is going to be a long and difficult jurney - but, I am so blessed! I could have ended in any of the disfunctional, selfish, inward-focused, consumer churches out there - and yet the Lord lead me to these dear ones. I have such a gift for messing things up, and getting things wrong - and yet I am so blessed!

News and stuff

2009-01-20T23:03:00.005Z

Well, I've been posting (occasionally) to the p.com blog, since I forgot the login to this one. It eventually came back to me, so here I go again :-)

The News.... I am in a new church (Ford Baptist Church), a new town (Plymouth), a new country (UK), a new job (self-employed database programmer and website designer - well, apart from pastoring) and - I don't know, there so many new things going on! Just getting out of this very dark valley, but hey, I probably needed this experience too. How else would I serve those who are going through this same road?

Oh, and I'm so very excited with this new church I'm in. Well, it's about 150 years 'new', in a poorer inner city neighborhood, big crumbling building, lots of hurts and needs and problems - but hey, I love this bunch of people. I am so looking forward to what the Lord is going to do with us here! This time I hope it's for the long haul, there is no INS to chase me out, we should be fine; if only we can get some income....

Anyway, the Lord is good, He has been taking care of us and guiding us through, so here we are.

Here's to the new blog

2007-06-27T15:45:00.000+01:00

The old Imagine! blog died a horrible, painful death. Poor thing...

Well, most things die eventually. RIP.

So here is my new attempt at blogging. I am no longer a church planter - for now, anyway. I am in between countries - getting ready to leave the US in order to return to the UK. But I am still enjoying this wonderful adventure in following Jesus Christ, my Lord. Oh, I know, it sounds terribly religious, but what can you expect from a preacher?
Although it's not religion that attracted me to Jesus. I grew up in a communist country - following a revolutionary, subversive figure like Jesus was just the thing for a rebellious teenager.

And then, as I began walking with him in this new adventure, I saw how real, palpable, it all was. None of that religious mumbo-jumbo - but an actual day-by-day walk with God.
Oh, yeah, preachers will tell you all about living by faith. Right. I used to work in a science lab, so I got somewhat hooked on facts and experience. So I'm living may faith that way too. Christ gave me so many obvious, undeniable, amazing experiences with him, that 'living by faith' is a bit of a misnomer for my spiritual walk.

Ok, God and me still have these fights and disagreements. I know he knows best, but I still would like him to do things my way most of the time. And when the fight is over and I can look back, I am always grateful that he didn't do things my way. Well, most of the time, anyway.

Anyway, the blog retains that 'imagine!' title because I'm still following the same path. Imagine faith that is not a blind leap in the dark, but deeply rooted in the daily experience of walking with God. Scary, right? Well, that's the idea. The group of friends that formed my first church got it - well, enough of them did to make a difference. Over the past few years I tried to get here, in the US, a group of people to walk with me on this same path. It didn't happen. I guess I'm not the kind of man Americans would follow. Different cultures look for different things in a preacher. Well, I'm going to keep the lines open - at least, through this blog. And if no one will follow, it's OK - people open themselves to God in different ways, it doesn't have to be my way. I just wish that this blog will be a help to someone, somewhere, some time.